I agree with this. Putting myself in the position of a black student, I think I would be concerned. I still think the culprit is racial preferences in admissions.
To address an earlier comment of yours: these professors are clearly incorporating class participation into the grade and thus the grading isn’t completely blind. That would concern me as a black student.
That makes sense. In my ancient day, we were called on in class. Refusing to answer probably affected grades (it happened but rarely), but I don't think it was otherwise part of grading. In general, 1L grades were based on tests.
I am completely willing to believe these professors are well-meaning, and that they are genuinely concerned about why there may be disparities in outcomes among their students. Or not. But I also think this would cause reasonable concern among minority students.
I think the law school owes it to the professors to provide the complete context. The professors owe it to the school and students to explain their concerns, even if they are no longer teaching. None of that will happen because it will only make this story last. However, it is bad for society that finding the truth has become so unimportant to so many.
I don't understand how they know the grade and race of specific students. Even when I went to law school decades ago, the tests and grades were not shown with our names.
Maybe the professors can get that information after the semester/year is over. Maybe they ask for this information because they are genuinely concerned about racial outcomes. Or maybe they know this because a disproportionate number of black students complain about or appeal final grades. I don't know what goes on but my feeling is that it isn't their job or concern to raise race-based issues. Their job is to teach, test and grade every student without regard for race, gender, etc.
I've taught as an adjunct in a Texas law school for 10 years, and unless Georgetown is different from every other law school I know of, racism really cannot play a part in the grading process. As the professor, you are only provided an exam number, and have no way of finding out who belongs to a particular exam until long after the grading is done and the scores are posted by the administration. You would not know the identity of the test taker, much less their race, so as to be in a position to grade them with a racially insensitive eye even if you wanted to. In fact, I could not even give the "hey, I know your dad/mom" bonus to kids of my own friends in law school for that very reason. The only thing these ex-professors could be talking about is if they have gone back after the exam period is over and done an examination of how certain people did on a particular test. Or, of course, if the administration somehow kept track of grades on a racial basis and provided the statistics to them. I don't even know what I would do if an administrator came to me and said "[a particular race/ethnic/religion/gender/etc.] has not being doing well on your exams over the last few years. What are you going to do about that?" Law schools generally are letting in students who do not belong there, whether for demographic or financial reasons for the schools. This leads to bad results, which are not the responsibility of the professors, who should never have to teach to the lowest common denominator in the first place. The entire uproar is scapegoating, plain and simple.
I'm struggling to comment without the full context for the reasons you laid out. I will say that the tone of the first professor seemed to communicate to me that they both knew black students were inferior to white. But I could be wrong.
I will say that if I were a black student I would try to avoid her class after seeing this. Maybe it's taken out of context, but why take the chance with a professor that seems to think I'm unlikely to succeed?
The more I think about it, it’s standard practice for the woke crowd to believe that a reflexive emotional response to a situation is truth. Nothing else matters - not facts, not evidence, not anything that might inform an opinion. In fact, if one opts to move past their emotional reaction to take the time to critically think about an issue and ask questions so they can make an informed opinion, they are, at the very least, viewed with suspicion. I suspect that the deluded student excoriating the professors sees critical thinking, facts, and context little more than devices used to cause harm. They are the enemies to be fought against. Again, the irony...Georgetown Law...
I don’t understand how anyone - let a student at Georgetown Law - could think that they could accurately assess a conversation and the context thereof without listening to the entirety of it. I don’t know her or whether she has race issues, but I think she could have done a better job of making her point. It was little bit cringey. And I think that he was gently trying to point that out to her. We are long past taking words at face value or giving white people in positions of power the benefit of the doubt. These days, it’s always a jump to worst-case scenario. Unless you are woke, you cannot have good intentions, you cannot make factual observations without being taken down if those observations can be taken personally by a group, and there is no coming back once judgement has been rendered. Facts really don’t matter at *Georgetown Law*. That’s some serious irony.
This is horrifying but unsurprising. Thank you, Patterico, for this essay and associated links.
I have three "rules" for my classroom and lab (which I learned, believe or not, from a diversity workshop coordinator):
1. Aways assume good intentions unless proven otherwise.
2. Never "mind read" other people; you do not know what another person thinks, just what they do or so.
3. Extend to others to patience, courtesy, and kindness you expect from others.
That same coordinator (who was African-American) said that *her* goal in her workshops was to create not a "safe space," but a "brave space." And that we should struggle to make our classrooms have such a philosophy.
I teach a laboratory science, but even I have been forced to insert (in first semester cell and molecular biology) three separate "bioethics" discussion modules in lab, focusing on race, gender, and power differentials.
We had a faculty search a few years ago, and the then department chair told me he could not consider a particular candidate because they "were white." Well, so was he. I notice that these well to do, white faculty with social justice warrior slogans never offer to give up their own jobs---instead, they want other people to do that. Makes me physically ill.
The rot is everywhere. Patterico knows some of the nonsense I have had to go through. The last time, I hired an attorney, and it really helped. Money well spent. Without such recourse, all faculty are vulnerable to people flat out lying or misrepresenting at will. So sad.
Kevin M, my youngest son very much wants to attend HMC to study mathematics. I wish we knew one another IRL to chat about the place. My wife (also a college professor) knows many of the faculty in her area at HMC. But this Dad worries...
I would happily recommend Mudd to anyone. I was very happy there. Sure, the rot is everywhere but I think some opf the things President Klawe has done are very good. Considering that my graduating class was 97% male, the idea of 50% female (heavy on the Asian female) sounds like near-heaven.
Besides the rigorous STEM environment and high expectations (here's some metal, there's a machine shop. Make a hammer, pliers and screwdriver), they insist on 10 semester courses, at minimum, in the humanities, and have places like Pomona College to take them.
You need some serious SAT scores to get in, and they care a lot about the verbal part, too.
But I'm going to assume that this conversation was used as a club by some, most likely in the faculty, and that emotions were inflamed and logic was entirely lost.
My alma mater (Harvey Mudd) had a similar kerfluffle in 2017 when the subject of the Freshman Core curriculum (all frosh take the same general survey courses to establish a common basis for later years). As faculty commented on changes needed, a few professors mentioned that an increasing number of students seemed unprepared compared to prior years, and that this was partly due to a "more diverse student body." (Mudd is, and has been for some time, 50/50 M/F and is trying to attract more Hispanics and Blacks, but significantly trails the general population numbers. It has a disproportionate number of Asians).
These comments "leaked", although iirc they did so without having names attached. A group of "marginalized" students (never mind they were at the #1 4-year engineering college in the country, usually with most of the $60K bill waived) complained that they were being singled out.
Massive respect for Harvey Mudd. There's a good chance i graduated from a school you would have also considered.
When i went to college one of the professors (who was female) was opening hostile to female students. Of of my friends hated asking her questions because the response was so harsh. I'd ask questions and the professor would answer helpfully without making it clear she thought I was a poor student through tone and body language. Stuff like that can have an impact.
I agree with this. Putting myself in the position of a black student, I think I would be concerned. I still think the culprit is racial preferences in admissions.
To address an earlier comment of yours: these professors are clearly incorporating class participation into the grade and thus the grading isn’t completely blind. That would concern me as a black student.
That makes sense. In my ancient day, we were called on in class. Refusing to answer probably affected grades (it happened but rarely), but I don't think it was otherwise part of grading. In general, 1L grades were based on tests.
DRJjust now
I am completely willing to believe these professors are well-meaning, and that they are genuinely concerned about why there may be disparities in outcomes among their students. Or not. But I also think this would cause reasonable concern among minority students.
I think the law school owes it to the professors to provide the complete context. The professors owe it to the school and students to explain their concerns, even if they are no longer teaching. None of that will happen because it will only make this story last. However, it is bad for society that finding the truth has become so unimportant to so many.
I don't understand how they know the grade and race of specific students. Even when I went to law school decades ago, the tests and grades were not shown with our names.
Maybe the professors can get that information after the semester/year is over. Maybe they ask for this information because they are genuinely concerned about racial outcomes. Or maybe they know this because a disproportionate number of black students complain about or appeal final grades. I don't know what goes on but my feeling is that it isn't their job or concern to raise race-based issues. Their job is to teach, test and grade every student without regard for race, gender, etc.
I've taught as an adjunct in a Texas law school for 10 years, and unless Georgetown is different from every other law school I know of, racism really cannot play a part in the grading process. As the professor, you are only provided an exam number, and have no way of finding out who belongs to a particular exam until long after the grading is done and the scores are posted by the administration. You would not know the identity of the test taker, much less their race, so as to be in a position to grade them with a racially insensitive eye even if you wanted to. In fact, I could not even give the "hey, I know your dad/mom" bonus to kids of my own friends in law school for that very reason. The only thing these ex-professors could be talking about is if they have gone back after the exam period is over and done an examination of how certain people did on a particular test. Or, of course, if the administration somehow kept track of grades on a racial basis and provided the statistics to them. I don't even know what I would do if an administrator came to me and said "[a particular race/ethnic/religion/gender/etc.] has not being doing well on your exams over the last few years. What are you going to do about that?" Law schools generally are letting in students who do not belong there, whether for demographic or financial reasons for the schools. This leads to bad results, which are not the responsibility of the professors, who should never have to teach to the lowest common denominator in the first place. The entire uproar is scapegoating, plain and simple.
I'm struggling to comment without the full context for the reasons you laid out. I will say that the tone of the first professor seemed to communicate to me that they both knew black students were inferior to white. But I could be wrong.
I will say that if I were a black student I would try to avoid her class after seeing this. Maybe it's taken out of context, but why take the chance with a professor that seems to think I'm unlikely to succeed?
The more I think about it, it’s standard practice for the woke crowd to believe that a reflexive emotional response to a situation is truth. Nothing else matters - not facts, not evidence, not anything that might inform an opinion. In fact, if one opts to move past their emotional reaction to take the time to critically think about an issue and ask questions so they can make an informed opinion, they are, at the very least, viewed with suspicion. I suspect that the deluded student excoriating the professors sees critical thinking, facts, and context little more than devices used to cause harm. They are the enemies to be fought against. Again, the irony...Georgetown Law...
I don’t understand how anyone - let a student at Georgetown Law - could think that they could accurately assess a conversation and the context thereof without listening to the entirety of it. I don’t know her or whether she has race issues, but I think she could have done a better job of making her point. It was little bit cringey. And I think that he was gently trying to point that out to her. We are long past taking words at face value or giving white people in positions of power the benefit of the doubt. These days, it’s always a jump to worst-case scenario. Unless you are woke, you cannot have good intentions, you cannot make factual observations without being taken down if those observations can be taken personally by a group, and there is no coming back once judgement has been rendered. Facts really don’t matter at *Georgetown Law*. That’s some serious irony.
We are rapidly making a elite class much like colonial England or India
This is horrifying but unsurprising. Thank you, Patterico, for this essay and associated links.
I have three "rules" for my classroom and lab (which I learned, believe or not, from a diversity workshop coordinator):
1. Aways assume good intentions unless proven otherwise.
2. Never "mind read" other people; you do not know what another person thinks, just what they do or so.
3. Extend to others to patience, courtesy, and kindness you expect from others.
That same coordinator (who was African-American) said that *her* goal in her workshops was to create not a "safe space," but a "brave space." And that we should struggle to make our classrooms have such a philosophy.
I teach a laboratory science, but even I have been forced to insert (in first semester cell and molecular biology) three separate "bioethics" discussion modules in lab, focusing on race, gender, and power differentials.
We had a faculty search a few years ago, and the then department chair told me he could not consider a particular candidate because they "were white." Well, so was he. I notice that these well to do, white faculty with social justice warrior slogans never offer to give up their own jobs---instead, they want other people to do that. Makes me physically ill.
The rot is everywhere. Patterico knows some of the nonsense I have had to go through. The last time, I hired an attorney, and it really helped. Money well spent. Without such recourse, all faculty are vulnerable to people flat out lying or misrepresenting at will. So sad.
Kevin M, my youngest son very much wants to attend HMC to study mathematics. I wish we knew one another IRL to chat about the place. My wife (also a college professor) knows many of the faculty in her area at HMC. But this Dad worries...
Thanks again, Patterico...
I would happily recommend Mudd to anyone. I was very happy there. Sure, the rot is everywhere but I think some opf the things President Klawe has done are very good. Considering that my graduating class was 97% male, the idea of 50% female (heavy on the Asian female) sounds like near-heaven.
Besides the rigorous STEM environment and high expectations (here's some metal, there's a machine shop. Make a hammer, pliers and screwdriver), they insist on 10 semester courses, at minimum, in the humanities, and have places like Pomona College to take them.
You need some serious SAT scores to get in, and they care a lot about the verbal part, too.
So, both professors were adjuncts, without tenure. I wonder how this would play out with tenured faculty.
I don't know that tenure is quite a protective as it used to be.
But I'm going to assume that this conversation was used as a club by some, most likely in the faculty, and that emotions were inflamed and logic was entirely lost.
My alma mater (Harvey Mudd) had a similar kerfluffle in 2017 when the subject of the Freshman Core curriculum (all frosh take the same general survey courses to establish a common basis for later years). As faculty commented on changes needed, a few professors mentioned that an increasing number of students seemed unprepared compared to prior years, and that this was partly due to a "more diverse student body." (Mudd is, and has been for some time, 50/50 M/F and is trying to attract more Hispanics and Blacks, but significantly trails the general population numbers. It has a disproportionate number of Asians).
These comments "leaked", although iirc they did so without having names attached. A group of "marginalized" students (never mind they were at the #1 4-year engineering college in the country, usually with most of the $60K bill waived) complained that they were being singled out.
https://www.hmc.edu/inclusive-excellence/2017/03/28/response-to-wabash-report-list-of-demands-from-members-of-hmc-student-diversity-organizations/
Massive respect for Harvey Mudd. There's a good chance i graduated from a school you would have also considered.
When i went to college one of the professors (who was female) was opening hostile to female students. Of of my friends hated asking her questions because the response was so harsh. I'd ask questions and the professor would answer helpfully without making it clear she thought I was a poor student through tone and body language. Stuff like that can have an impact.