Interestingly, I read Joe and Jay’s pieces before reading this. And I was inclined to agree with their conclusions(more so with Jay). But now I read your piece here, it had me rethinking my views on the influence of people like Rogan and Owens. And now I come away believing that despite the good faith assertions of Joe and Jay, that that you have the better argument and your conclusions are correct.
As I think more about this, it reminds me of just how many people in our country with right of center beliefs bought into and believe in the stolen election lie. The number is staggering, and it hits close to come when there were many people in my social circles(even to my extended family) who bought into the Big Lie. And I had to spend considerable amounts of time debunking that for their sake. And the same applies with dishonest conspiracy theories about Covid and vaccines. That actually had me losing sleep over these things, as I had to spend a lot of time persuading acquaintances, friends, and some in my extended family to get vaccinated. A few in my circles have passed away unfortunately, and so it becomes really personal. And as your piece reminded me, misinformation starts off small, but people like Candace Owens, Alex Berenson and others can help spread it like an out of control wildfire. I think I succumbed to wishful thinking in persuading myself that the influence of these lying grifters were waning in their influence to where it was much less significant. Clearly I was wrong.
This is an outstanding piece Patterico, and very thought provoking. You had me rethinking a lot my views on this topic and ultimately changed my mind.
Thanks for one of my favorite comments I have received in quite some time. I often despair (and have sometimes remarked on my despair) that I am ever able to convince anyone of anything. Your statement that I have managed to convince you here is more rewarding than you can imagine. Thank you very much for the kind words.
It's also evidence of my thesis here. My own personal doubt that I am able to convince people in in part a function of my relatively small audience. The blog has tens of thousands of visitors, yes, but this Substack goes to only about 1000 or so. If I had an audience of 11 million, I would have no doubt that I am convincing someone. Even so, for this piece, one person (you) out of a thousand (roughly) to whom the email was sent has told me his mind was changed. If Joe Rogan can convince 1 out of every thousand of his listeners not to get vaccinated, that's 11,000 people (I was an English/music double major and not a math guy but I think my arithmetic is correct). That's a lot of unvaccinated people. We are of course speculating here, but your comment gives me at least some basis to do so.
It would be nice if people were honest with their words, if they were other aware and self aware. It would be nice if they understood and embraced the responsibilty that comes with having followers. Those people are fewer than I'd like, and even good people can make mistakes that have big consequences.
We live in a society that allows for tremendous amounts of misinformation and smears. It happens from the elites top down everyday which breeds a contrary reaction. Rogan and Owens (Trump as well) provide that contrary reaction with a Mike Tyson bite, and people from the lower levels see somone that will punch back and love it. The world can be dangerous when people under the elites glom onto figures that will punch back. Historically 50% or more of those figures turn into tyrants themselves, but that is the nature of the bargain.
The other day Sen. Warren went on TV to say Elon Musk paid $0 in taxes when the actual number was $11B. We can all agree that is quite a difference. The TV person knew better and said nothing. The Senators mission was accomplished because she knows that some of her followers won't check her assertions, and others will know better but applaud the attempt to smear a person and "the rich" because they are envious of wealth and want that money for themselves.
Today Eric Swallwell used omission of the sentence that provides context to make it sound like ex-President "Word Salad" Trump supports/admires Putin on Ukraine.
Evidently these Congress persons think lying is good for the country. Its not.
Owens and Rogan are not the tobacco smoke causing the cancer, they are 1st stage chemotherapy
Paul, your reply made me think about how the Nazi Swastika flag use by the mandate haters was spun by politicians and media as white nationalism. I'm sure there are some white nationalists in a crowd that large, but the flags were clearly meant to bait Trudeau. When the person waving the flag is shouting "F U, you f-ing Nazi" its a clue. That type of lying smear of the trucker class is infuriating to me... and I don't normally really care much about what happens in Ottawa. The other heartbreaker was when the anti mandaters were calling the police "f-ing Nazis" The view had switched from "hey those are the police who protect and serve" to "those guys are Trudeau's Gestapo".
Interestingly, I read Joe and Jay’s pieces before reading this. And I was inclined to agree with their conclusions(more so with Jay). But now I read your piece here, it had me rethinking my views on the influence of people like Rogan and Owens. And now I come away believing that despite the good faith assertions of Joe and Jay, that that you have the better argument and your conclusions are correct.
As I think more about this, it reminds me of just how many people in our country with right of center beliefs bought into and believe in the stolen election lie. The number is staggering, and it hits close to come when there were many people in my social circles(even to my extended family) who bought into the Big Lie. And I had to spend considerable amounts of time debunking that for their sake. And the same applies with dishonest conspiracy theories about Covid and vaccines. That actually had me losing sleep over these things, as I had to spend a lot of time persuading acquaintances, friends, and some in my extended family to get vaccinated. A few in my circles have passed away unfortunately, and so it becomes really personal. And as your piece reminded me, misinformation starts off small, but people like Candace Owens, Alex Berenson and others can help spread it like an out of control wildfire. I think I succumbed to wishful thinking in persuading myself that the influence of these lying grifters were waning in their influence to where it was much less significant. Clearly I was wrong.
This is an outstanding piece Patterico, and very thought provoking. You had me rethinking a lot my views on this topic and ultimately changed my mind.
HCI,
Thanks for one of my favorite comments I have received in quite some time. I often despair (and have sometimes remarked on my despair) that I am ever able to convince anyone of anything. Your statement that I have managed to convince you here is more rewarding than you can imagine. Thank you very much for the kind words.
It's also evidence of my thesis here. My own personal doubt that I am able to convince people in in part a function of my relatively small audience. The blog has tens of thousands of visitors, yes, but this Substack goes to only about 1000 or so. If I had an audience of 11 million, I would have no doubt that I am convincing someone. Even so, for this piece, one person (you) out of a thousand (roughly) to whom the email was sent has told me his mind was changed. If Joe Rogan can convince 1 out of every thousand of his listeners not to get vaccinated, that's 11,000 people (I was an English/music double major and not a math guy but I think my arithmetic is correct). That's a lot of unvaccinated people. We are of course speculating here, but your comment gives me at least some basis to do so.
Thanks again for the nice comment.
It would be nice if people were honest with their words, if they were other aware and self aware. It would be nice if they understood and embraced the responsibilty that comes with having followers. Those people are fewer than I'd like, and even good people can make mistakes that have big consequences.
We live in a society that allows for tremendous amounts of misinformation and smears. It happens from the elites top down everyday which breeds a contrary reaction. Rogan and Owens (Trump as well) provide that contrary reaction with a Mike Tyson bite, and people from the lower levels see somone that will punch back and love it. The world can be dangerous when people under the elites glom onto figures that will punch back. Historically 50% or more of those figures turn into tyrants themselves, but that is the nature of the bargain.
The other day Sen. Warren went on TV to say Elon Musk paid $0 in taxes when the actual number was $11B. We can all agree that is quite a difference. The TV person knew better and said nothing. The Senators mission was accomplished because she knows that some of her followers won't check her assertions, and others will know better but applaud the attempt to smear a person and "the rich" because they are envious of wealth and want that money for themselves.
Today Eric Swallwell used omission of the sentence that provides context to make it sound like ex-President "Word Salad" Trump supports/admires Putin on Ukraine.
Evidently these Congress persons think lying is good for the country. Its not.
Owens and Rogan are not the tobacco smoke causing the cancer, they are 1st stage chemotherapy
That aligns with my sentiments, and well said.
I would make one small change. The truckers are mandate-hating, not "vaccine-hating" given that around 85% to 90% of them are vaxxed.
Will Saletan has a good piece on Tucker Carlson, likening the FoxNews deutschebag to Father Coughlin.
thebulwark.Com/father-carlson/
Paul, Patrick thanks to both for your thoughts.
Paul, your reply made me think about how the Nazi Swastika flag use by the mandate haters was spun by politicians and media as white nationalism. I'm sure there are some white nationalists in a crowd that large, but the flags were clearly meant to bait Trudeau. When the person waving the flag is shouting "F U, you f-ing Nazi" its a clue. That type of lying smear of the trucker class is infuriating to me... and I don't normally really care much about what happens in Ottawa. The other heartbreaker was when the anti mandaters were calling the police "f-ing Nazis" The view had switched from "hey those are the police who protect and serve" to "those guys are Trudeau's Gestapo".